Dental Staffing – How To Hire & Retain The Best Employees For Your Practice

Dental Staffing – How To Hire & Retain The Best Employees For Your Practice

To get in touch with Roy:

Roy Barker 

View Full Transcript

Chris Pistorius (00:03):

Hi everybody. This is Chris Pistorius again with The Dental and Orthodontic Marketing Podcast. Thanks for coming back for another episode. We’ve got another great guest for you today, we’ve got, Roy Barker. Roy, is a Consultant and he’s here to talk about one of the biggest hot issues right now, I think in dentistry anyway, and that’s how to retain employees. I’ve heard from many of you out there that watch the show are current clients of us, how we’re having such a hard time getting, finding, keeping employees and you feel like you’re in this churn of hiring and then training and then hiring and then training and you’re never really getting forward. Roy, thanks so much for being on the show today.

Roy Barker (00:51):

You bet, Chris, thanks a lot for having me, I appreciate it.

Chris Pistorius (00:54):

Absolutely. Well, first of all, why don’t you just tell us a little bit about what you do, your background and we’ll go from there.

Roy Barker (00:59):

Well, I’ve been consulting for about the last 25 years, a lot of strategy financial and then I fell into the retention side. I worked in the senior living industry and actually I did some graduate studies in that and I was reading a book and it said that some of these communities can have up to 300% turnover. I actually had to go back and read this again and be like, “Okay, so you got 100 people or so and you’re turning over 300 times every year.” What is the cost to the organization? Because there’s not only a true physical money outlay for that but there’s also humongous risk that we run by churning that many people through any kind of a business every year. So it just really got me interested in this part of business and believe me, it reaches out to a lot of industries and hurts a lot of people, but it’s the five most dangerous words in business is that, well, it’s always been this way.

But my message is it really doesn’t always have to be that way, there are things that can be done in order to help reduce that turnover. It’s not going to be instantaneous, you’re not going to flip a switch, but if you can get yourself in the right mindset and in the right process and the right role, I think any business can bring that way down.

Chris Pistorius (02:28):

Awesome. You’re definitely hitting a hot topic here. I know it’s not just in dentistry but it’s what we hear all the time. So why don’t you tell everybody a little bit about, what does proper employee retention look like? Is it going out and buying ping pong tables or is it getting a soda machine maybe in there? I mean, how do you do it? What are the tricks here?

Roy Barker (02:54):

Those are the easy things that everybody wants to focus on because they’re really cool but you know my message is that’s at the bottom. I actually created an employee retention funnel, typically like a sales funnel just starting at the top, how we feed things through and what comes out at the bottom. And so while those are important things to have to retain good employees, the operative word there is good employee. We have to make sure that we’re actually hiring people that are compatible with our work situation, good attitudes. And especially in professional services, people that can handle the customers in a way that doesn’t run your business of because unfortunately, you make some bad hires, they chase off some clients and then you’ve got other problems as well.

But one of my big messages is I think that we need to think about marketing for talent, like we think about marketing for clients or prospects is that we can’t be reactive. And recruiting today unfortunately, is placing an ad on Indeed or some other service and that’s not recruiting. That’s placing an ad and sending it out. We’ve got to take the time to recruit and get ahead of this so we can be proactive not reactive. And when somebody leaves, we need to have three or four candidates that we can think, “Okay, I know these three people I need to reach out to, because I’ve seen their social media and what they say, they’re not doing anything outrageous.”

The last year has been difficult because we’ve been under quarantine so we can’t go out to events, but when you can get to events, collect people’s names, cards, think about that always, who would fit into my office well? Who would I want the way that we interact at a conference or even at a restaurant, if you get somebody that gives you good service, we could teach them to use the tools, the computer put stuff in it’s that attitude and how they handle your customers. Those are the main things and that they’re compatible with you and your staff, your whole process.

Chris Pistorius (05:10):

There is a whole science behind this and sometimes we do this, but have you ever heard of or have any experience or any opinion on using some of these employee personality tests? I think one’s like a Kolbe index where you take them through an exam and it takes out some numbers that it’s supposed to show their personalities. Have you done that before?

Roy Barker (05:31):

Yeah. Actually in the senior living industry, there is a company that focuses on care and caregivers because unfortunately over in that section, they get so far behind in hiring that it’s just more of a cattle call. They just bring as many people in and we used to joke that the litmus test for getting hired was first, do you have a pulse? And secondly, do you like the elderly and everybody’s like, “Yeah, I do.” But the reality is taking care of my grandmother for me is a lot different than taking care of yours. And so there were not only skills but aptitude tests to find, are people tempered with it. A couple other things that they would actually screen for not really hidden, but out in the open would be substance abuse and predisposition to file workers comp claims.

At first, when I heard that I actually called the guy that designed it, a psychologist and called him and said like, “Are you sneaking the question in the back door, are you twisting something around?” He’s like, “Nope.” He’s like, “We come right out and ask, have you ever, would you ever, have you ever considered.” Because he said those types of people live in a different world. He’s like, “They are very open.” That’s they talk to their friends about it, so the best way is just ask the question. On the drug side, it’s could you pass a screen today and if they can or can’t, then there’s your answer.

But it’s also about getting out there for that recruiting part to have people in mind but then also that assessment, that’s a huge second step before I even want to see anybody for an interview. Is we need to have industry specific if we can or position specific assessment to run them through, prior to even bringing them in for an interview. That’s going to give you a lot of clues about their aptitude, how they can interact and like I said, it’s not about, I know how to run the computer programs at the office. It’s as much, can I learn it, am I willing to learn it? Those are the types of things that you should be looking for.

Chris Pistorius (07:51):

That makes sense. We use these personality tests more as a guide, it comes back and okay, yeah, that aligns but we’re not going to eliminate somebody just because your personality test didn’t… Because some people can get squirrely taking tests. I mean, I just don’t think it can be an end all be all, when you’re talking about hiring.

Roy Barker (08:14):

Right, right. And I like those too, because they’re more positional, is if you’re applying for a sales role, do you have that sales aptitude versus would you rather be behind a computer? Just leave me alone, let me punch in my numbers every day. So a lot can be gained from that but a couple more things is not only… The other nice thing about the assessment that I was talking about, is they would actually generate questions for you to ask in an interview. And so we need to really think about, what kind of questions and not the typical ones that we used to hear about, do you want to be a big fish in a little pond or a little fish in a big pond and those kinds of things. Because people learn how to talk around those so we need to ask very important thing, if it’s a customer facing position, what would you do in this position, have you ever been in?

Run through some of these real life challenges but then the next thing is the onboarding and I always suggest setting up some kind of a mentorship. Because I mean, Chris, if you just hired me tomorrow and I know computers pretty well but I come to your work and I’m not that proficient with whatever you’ve got going on. Well, I don’t want to come to Chris and say, “Hey, I’m the guy you just hired yesterday and I don’t really know what to do here.” If I had a peer, somebody I could say, “Hey, I’m having a little trouble.” They could provide that guidance because I’ll tell you what, a lot of times the new employee will get frustrated and say, “I’m out of here.”

And then you get the no call, no show and here you go again hiring and so the onboarding process it’s key. And when I say onboarding, it’s not laying a three ring binder on somebody’s desk and give them a couple hours to read through it and say we’re done. It needs to be spread out over a period of time dependent upon how heavy it is. But I mean, it could take two to three weeks not eight hours a day, but little bits and pieces to get the important stuff out of the way, follow up. And then also have follow-up guides for, maybe what these are the tasks that you need to complete every day. This is a task that maybe you need to look at once a week or keep your eye on, just a little reminder where they can walk through that, which gets back to the importance of documentation of workflow and documentation of positions.

Because somebody at your company knows what this guy does, not everybody and so if the right person isn’t there, then it’s like, “I don’t even know what this position does.” So have everything documented and these are living, breathing documents that change. I mean, just because we out in this position today, when I get in it we may need to tweak it for what I’m doing. Maybe we’ve added, maybe we’ve subtracted but it’s going to change over time. But you need to sit down every six months to a year, really look at all of your positions to make sure that you have them documented what they are really doing.

Chris Pistorius (11:18):

Yeah, I totally agree. And having a problem of writing down some points as you speak, this is great stuff. I read a book years ago and I’ve actually read it a couple of times, maybe you have to, it’s called E-Myth Revisited.

Roy Barker (11:31):


Chris Pistorius (11:31):

And it talks about, no matter if you’re a dentist or you’re a McDonald’s, the author uses the example of a McDonald’s in most of the book and how it’s set up, how a franchise is set up. Where they basically a franchise is the machine, the process and procedures really are the machine. And then you plug people in that have well-documented process and procedures to run that machine. And then he says, you can apply it, you don’t have to be a franchise to apply that. He talks about how everything that you do in your business should have a manual to it, a process, a procedure, so that if somebody got hit by a bus for instance, a new person could almost just walk in and read that and be able to do that job. Again, that’s not the end all be all but I think it’s critically important to have that. And I think a dental practices is not immune to that. I think that’s something that they could use as well, would you agree to that?

Roy Barker (12:30):

Yeah. Certainly it needs to be documented and nowadays we have access to things like Teams and Zoom and there’s another called, Loom. I love it because it’s a screen capture and so all these, even if it’s a complex set of going here in a computer system, you can document it and have it there. Maybe you told me about it on Monday when I came in I forgot, the next week I can revisit this video to figure that out. So we’ve got so many tools that there’s really no excuse, it’s just taking the time and people think it’s a waste but it’s not because the next part is, as we grow, we need to know when we need to trigger that next hire. Because typically what I see is people come in and they’re like, “My gosh, we needed to hire an extra person a month ago and now we’re already behind, so we’re scrambling.” But that way you can look at your processes, procedures and what’s going to be the trigger to add that next person. So it really helps in growth as well as what’s going on right now.

Chris Pistorius (13:33):

Yeah, that’s perfect. People talk about hiring and training and it’s laughable type subject but there is a pretty big risk, I think in doing this too. And I know that from my own business, we have client success managers and they’re really the ones with the day to day communication with our clients and they forge relationships and rely on each other. And so that’s a very important hire for us and we find that if by whatever reason we lose one of those client success managers and we bring somebody new in and there are some clients that raised our hands and say, “Hey, I don’t know about a new person here.” I knew Sally or whoever it was. So I’m thinking with dentistry, it’s similar, that if you do a lot of that churn, do you think that there’s a potential of losing some patients from that type of activity?

Roy Barker (14:26):

Yeah. Definitely and from my own experience if it’s a company I deal with regularly, if I see that it’s somebody new every time I’m calling or going in it raises a red flag, because I’m like, “What is going on?” Because it generally it’s a amplification of other things that are going on in the business. It’s not just something that siloed over here all by itself typically. And one thing I was going to mention is the cost, there’s the risk factor. I mean, nowadays with data the HIPAA laws and how we got to protect data. But also, people getting into your bank accounts and doing all this other stuff, there’s also that worker’s comp issue but the true cash cost is depending, but usually between about five to $7,500 to replace a $10 an hour employee. And as we climb up-

Chris Pistorius (15:22):

There’s not many $10 an hour employees anymore, either.

Roy Barker (15:26):

Exactly. And there’s been some studies of your McDonald’s workers that some experts have put that at up to $10,000 to turn them over. And so another message is let’s take some of that money and invest in our people that we have to help them and make them want to stay. The reality is too that people and this isn’t my study, there’s a lot of empirical evidence that employees are not going to walk across the street for another dime or for 25 cents more an hour, it just doesn’t happen. Now on an exit interview, I’m going to tell you, Chris, I found more money over here because I don’t want to tell you that I don’t like you or I don’t like your manager or that there’s some turmoil in your business. And there’s just an old saying that people leave managers, they don’t leave companies.

And so that’s what we have to get to the root of, is what is that management issue? If we have multiple departments, we can look at when we look at employee turnover numbers, we can see it’s skewed to this one department versus another. Maybe we need to do a little work with that manager over there. It can be a costly proposition and that’s just on the front end and like you were saying, the risk on the back end there’s really no dollar limit, because they can hurt your business, they can put you out of business.

Chris Pistorius (16:46):

That’s right. That’s for sure. Yeah, it’s a serious deal. You mentioned earlier about marketing for talent and I’ll tell you what’s happening now in the dental industry, as you probably already know is that we do marketing for dentists. Our job is supposed to be bring in new patients, help you keep the ones you have and then help you bring back in the ones that you’ve already had. And so what we’re seeing is we want to get the funnel full and get the new patients and make sure the back door is locked so that you’re not losing patients, essentially. But what we’re seeing now is that we are now starting to do some of our marketing campaigns on the hiring.

Trying to find people for these dental practices, like Facebook ads, for instance, LinkedIn ads, we sometimes even manage Indeed for people. Are you seeing more of that happening now? And do you have some experience in managing that process or what do you think of all that?

Roy Barker (17:50):

That’s pretty forward thinking and it’s a good thing to do that but the other thing I like to focus on is the practice itself, is talk about why you’re different. What sets you apart than being any other place like on LinkedIn or Facebook, if you have pictures of, we’ve got modern equipment. Have pictures of your happy workers that are still working there. You know, those are all the kind of things to make me when I’m scrolling through and be like, “Hey, you know what? That looks like a great place to work.” And maybe I’ll put in there or even if I’m a client, we can’t overlook that even some of the clients that come through maybe may make good employees.

It’s something that you always have to be looking for and one thing I have heard a lot is that people be out at restaurants and they get very good customer service and they just asked the waitress, “Hey, have you ever thought about being in the dental industry?” Depending upon the position but if they’re going to be a customer facing, if they’ve got a good attitude. Those are the things that we always have to be keeping our eye, you go to, if you’re at some kind of conference event, always be looking around for the intelligent top people that you feel that could work well in your organization. Write it down and say, look, maybe you say, “I don’t have a position right now, would you be open to, if something opens up in the next six months, would you be interested in coming?”

Have those conversations, you can watch them on Facebook or social media in general, because I’ll tell you, I’ve had some people that I thought made great candidates, they said all the right things. And then I found some, “My gosh, moments on Facebook.” And luckily I checked it before, hiring but those are things that, if you know this person and you think that they might make a good employee, it’s things that you can always be looking at over time not have to make a split second decision. Like I looked at this one page, this is what it says today or it gives you time to think about, things like that.

Chris Pistorius (19:54):

Yeah. Yeah. I agree. And notice I’m going to switch gears a little bit in terms of retention. You don’t necessarily hear about this in dentistry a lot but what’s your thoughts on maybe including bonus plans for retention? Is that something that you think could help or is money not the only object here?

Roy Barker (20:16):

Typically money is not the object, I think that you always want to bonus those good people that you have and keep them. But I think we get back to what we talked about in the beginning, is that if I’ve got somebody with the sour attitude, I don’t want them staying around for six months. We want to get that good hire that has the good attitude, but yeah, bonuses and things like that. And also two we talk a lot about, not necessarily money maybe you give them a trip. People like events or like things that they can experience, so if there’s something in your geographical area that would be cool to send somebody for a day, it’s well worth it to give them a day off work, spend a couple $100 to let them go take the… If you close early on let’s say a Friday afternoon, send the women if they want to go down and do the manicure, pedicure, pay for that.

I’m huge about off site events, I need to know you outside of work, I need to know our family, your kids. I need to know what’s going on in your life so when you come in and have a bad day, we can have a conversation. And I know, maybe if your husband’s going through some illness or something, we can talk about that. But so many times everybody it’s just work but go out and have a meal, cook them lunch, bring in lunch, do something. But you can’t do that and lock yourself in your office, you have to be a part of the group, the comradery but really get to know the people.

Chris Pistorius (21:51):

Yeah. Yeah. That’s great advice. I wonder about, sometimes when you’re hiring, that’s certainly part of retention there’s a debate going on right now with dentistry and probably other industries. When you hire somebody for the long haul and you want to have that retention, should you bring somebody in with a ton of experience or should you bring somebody in with no experience? And the reason I say that you tipped on this, is that my thought is with my business is I can bring somebody in and I can teach them what we do. I can teach them marketing and how we do things in the process and procedures but what I can’t teach sometimes, is if I bringing somebody in and they just have a bad attitude. They’re not easy to coach. That’s something that I would struggle with in the longterm.

So the debate is, do you bring somebody in with no experience that maybe you could mold a little bit more or do you take that chance on somebody that’s got a ton of experience? What are your thoughts with that?

Roy Barker (22:53):

If I have to go with experience over attitude, I will take the attitude because I’m like you, I can train them to do what I need them to do. It may take me a little longer but I’ll tell you a bad attitude is like a virus and it will spread throughout your entire organization.

Chris Pistorius (23:09):

And they can hide it. They can hide it during the interview process.

Roy Barker (23:13):

Yeah. And they’ll come in and smile at you and tell you everything you want to hear and then when they get there, it’s just complain, complain, till it sours everybody. And what happens then unfortunately, they ended up staying but your other good people get to leave and because they’re tired of hearing it. So it can have an adverse effect. I have a Venn diagram almost it’s skill, education and grit. And I think we have to have grit because people aren’t going to always know every answer but what I want somebody to do is know when to go find it. I don’t want somebody just to sit there and say, “I don’t know.” I want them to say, “You know what, don’t know it, but I can find out for you.” That’s the kind of people that we really need to have. And I think that comes from a grit factor is that, it’s okay to say we don’t know stuff but we have to follow that up with, I will find out and get back to you. Whether it’s for the customer or whether it’s for the professional themself.

Chris Pistorius (24:16):

Yeah. Yeah. I think that’s so critical, it really is. I’m going to my last big question here is, I come from corporate America and some of this has been drilled into me, but I’ve always wondered if it is effective. It seems to work for us but it’s the quarterly review, stuff where you sit down in one-on-one with somebody and you talk to them about their performance, about where they see themselves and how they want to grow within your company. Is that something that’s still effective or are there any new twists to this? Is this something that you would recommend?

Roy Barker (24:52):

I would recommend sooner rather than later because it’s whatever your start date was, if it’s June 1st. So we’re sitting down in May the next year and I’m like, “You remember back on June, the third, you did this.” And the employee is like, “Well, gosh, that’s been a whole year now. I’m just getting in trouble for it.” I think we need evaluations, we need to write things down and document it just in case we have to get rid of somebody, we have it. Because that’s a bad thing if you don’t do it, it’s really hard to get rid of undesirable employee. But I think we need to do it in real time, it’s just stop by the desk, have these casual conversations about this is my expectations. “Hey, I would like for you to pick up a little bit more on this.” But yeah, the more throughout the year we can have them, because the old days was, it was at once a year.

Chris Pistorius (25:44):

And in [inaudible 00:25:44].

Roy Barker (25:44):

Yeah. And it’s lost on everybody because it’s been like, how are you remembering back a year have you been taking notes? If you have, then why haven’t we talked? Why didn’t you try to correct my behavior back when you thought it was a problem, instead of waiting now, give me a bad review and not giving me a chance. Because I don’t think people ever want to come in and do the wrong thing, sometimes they just don’t know. And so again, I can’t stress communication it’s an open communication that when they start the job, this is what I need you to do. Clear process and procedures that they can refer to but then having those conversations and quarterly is good, but I mean, even monthly, it doesn’t have to be formal, but it can just be, “Hey, here are some things I want to talk to you about.”

Chris Pistorius (26:34):

Right. Right. Yeah, that’s awesome, that’s awesome. Roy, I know you’ve been so busy and we’ve had to reschedule a couple of times for both of our schedules but I really appreciate you taking the time today. Any leaving words of advice or nuggets of wisdom, you can provide to dental industry on retaining employees?

Roy Barker (26:54):

Yeah. Just one more thing. I appreciate you having me, it’s been great being here, but you know what? I would challenge everybody to do it’s to be an employer of choice, not to be an employer of last resort. Which is sometimes what we do is where the like, “I didn’t get that other job I really wanted, so you’re hiring, I’ll just take that.” Really get out there and market and have people that really want to come to work for you not feel like, they don’t have another choice but to work for you.

Chris Pistorius (27:22):

Right. And Roy, if somebody wants to reach out that sees this or listens to this and they want some more help from somebody like you, what’s the best way to reach out and contact you?

Roy Barker (27:33):

Just shoot me an email, it’s, Yeah, just email me, I’ll be glad to chat, even if somebody just wants to talk through something, I’ll be glad to have a conversation.

Chris Pistorius (27:49):

Awesome. Well, thanks again for your time and I want to thank you everybody that tuned in to this episode. I know this is going to be a popular and just because of the importance it has in the dental industry. And please join us next time we’ve got more great guests coming up in the next four to six episodes and really appreciate everybody taking the time to watch. So for, Roy and myself, thanks again. And we’ll talk to you very soon. Thank you.

Roy Barker (28:12):

Thanks, Chris.


How To Determine The Selling Price Of Your Practice

How To Determine The Selling Price Of Your Practice

To get in touch with Megan:

Megan Urban
Omni Practice Group
(503) 830-5765

View Full Transcript

Chris Pistorius (00:03):

Hi everybody. It’s Chris Pistorius again, with the Dental and Orthodontic Marketing Podcast.

Chris Pistorius (00:08):

I got a great guest for us this week. We have Megan Urban with OMNI Practice Group. She specifically is a dental practice broker, so she helps dentists buy practices, sell practices, and kind of everything in between. She’s based in Salem, Oregon, but her and her group can work in a lot of the United States. Megan specifically has really spent her whole life in dentistry. I think we’re in for a treat here today. Megan thanks so much for joining the program.

Megan Urban (00:44):

Thank you.

Chris Pistorius (00:45):

Why don’t you start off Megan, by telling us a little bit about what you do, what OMNI is all about and we’ll kind of go from there?

Megan Urban (00:53):

Well, with OMNI, we’ve been a group helping dentists in all the specialties, so orthodontist, periodontist, all the different specialties since gosh, 2004. And like you said, we’re in most every state almost. We do help dentists of all specialties buy and sell practices, even help because of our background and our experience, we can help even if somebody is looking to add an associate and how does work. We do a lot of consulting around dentistry in general, but we certainly help with the buying and selling of dental practices. All of us have our real estate licenses too, so that makes it nice because then we can help if there is any kind of real estate involved, whether it’s a condo or a freestanding building or whatever.

Chris Pistorius (01:40):

Cool. Nice.

Chris Pistorius (01:41):

How do you see the market right now as a whole? Is it a hot market? Is it kind of a stagnant market? Where is it?

Megan Urban (01:49):

It’s a seller’s market. We had a few years, after 2008, I realize that’s a little while back, where I think dentists ended up having to work longer than they thought they would. It’s definitely a seller’s market and banks are lending, so it’s a great market right now. I know a lot of us and a lot of the population always are concerned with the big corporate practices and the direction that’s going, but we still see a lot of dentists that want their own thing. So we’re busy.

Chris Pistorius (02:23):

Yeah, well that’s great. That’s good news.

Chris Pistorius (02:26):

I definitely want to get into to the broker and selling and buying and that kind of stuff. Do you also help? I assume you could help a dentist that maybe has one practice and is looking to expand into additional practices too.

Megan Urban (02:41):

Absolutely. It’s a big deal to add an associate or to add another location. It really is a big deal. We like to help with that so that it has a better result than winging it. It’s a big deal.

Chris Pistorius (02:58):

Yeah. Yeah.

Chris Pistorius (02:59):

Talk a little bit about banks and lending. I know that’s certainly part of it. Have you seen any banks be a little tighter now because of COVID or are we starting to see that kind of expand out now?

Megan Urban (03:12):

A little bit. I think from my perspective, I feel like they do sometimes change their processes and things that they like. Sometimes they like startups, sometimes they don’t. Sometimes they like multiple locations, sometimes they don’t. During the height of COVID I was still selling practices and getting lending for people, but it was a little bit of a different process. We definitely have done all specific lenders that help our dentists. They understand dentistry, so they hear the story; it’s not just the numbers. It is the numbers, but they also hear the story. We have a lot of great banks that we work with.

Chris Pistorius (03:56):

Gotcha. Okay.

Chris Pistorius (03:57):

I’m going to kind of put you into two situations here. Let’s say first of all, I’m coming out of school or maybe I’ve been an associate for a while and I’m ready to buy my own practice. What are some tips or tricks if you will, or what do I need to do to get ready to do that?

Megan Urban (04:13):

I think you need to ask yourself if you’re ready to do it, and then I think you do need to find the right broker that can help you understand the practice that you’re looking at. No practice is perfect. There’s always areas of opportunity, but going in with your eyes wide open, I think is good. So anytime you can work with a broker that does come like I do, like we do from a dental background that truly understands what’s happening and how to make that smooth transition.

Megan Urban (04:48):

I think it’s also time to get your financial information together for the bank. They’re going to usually want maybe the last two or three years of your tax returns. They’re going to want to know what debt you have. And they expect every new dentist to have 200, $500,000 in student debt. Then they’re going to also want to know how much other debt do you have in credit card or that type of thing. Just to be able to get those things together. The other half to their loan is what is the practice cash flow? But if you have your stuff together and you’re ready to roll, that’s a good piece.

Megan Urban (05:31):

They have to look at information about the practice too. If the practice is doing surgical implants and this dentist, like you just said, is new out of school and they don’t do surgical implants yet, what’s the plan? Is the seller going to stay on and do them, or maybe it’s not a big part of the practice so it’s not a concern. Just a lot of details to look at.

Chris Pistorius (05:52):


Chris Pistorius (05:54):

Over the years, I know you’ve been in dentistry a long time and I want hit on that too, but do you see dentists that are more successful just starting a brand new from scratch practice or one’s more successful typically when they buy an existing book of business or an existing practice?

Megan Urban (06:09):

I think it takes a really special person or a unique person that can do a startup. You have to be pretty outgoing. You can’t just sit down in the chair and continue the process. You really have to get out there. That’s where, especially you guys come in handy because it’s not like the old days where you just put your shingle out front with your name and people walk in. So super critical that you think you have the personality and the wherewithal emotionally and financially to do a startup, but then be willing to understand that there’s a cost they’re going to need to put forward to with a great marketing plan. A lot of the banks understand that too, and so they’re going to potentially include that financial piece for marketing.

Chris Pistorius (07:01):

Gotcha. When we talk about starting something from scratch or even buying an existing practice, I think you’re probably right, banks realize that they’re going to need some money to start this up and get their own stuff going, and they’ll include some of those monies for marketing and things like that, right?

Megan Urban (07:23):

Yep. I always tell the young dentists because they’re concerned about the finances and I understand that, but sometimes you really have to keep the big picture in mind. $10,000, 30, $50,000 I realize is a lot of money, but in the life of your career it’s not that much for 30, 40 whatever years.

Chris Pistorius (07:46):

Yeah. We talk a lot about that with dentists. A lot of them, when we get some practices in to do our marketing services, they’re very focused on, “Okay, what are you going to do for me next month,” type thinking, and I totally get that. But they also have to sit back and realize, “Okay, what is a new patient worth to me for the lifetime of them being a patient,” and really knowing their numbers and understanding what each new patient’s worth. And if I do send them 10 brand new patients, how many of those will come back for regular treatment for the rest of their lives potentially? They’ve got to really start thinking about that big picture, not just next month, but next six months, next year, next five years, next 10 years. So I think that’s an excellent point.

Megan Urban (08:31):

Yeah. Which is why I always encourage them too is it is important your new patient count, but let’s look at your re-care. How many did come for their regular cleanings and perio-maintenance? Where all those people going?

Chris Pistorius (08:43):

Yeah, you’re exactly right. I’ve seen it too many times where a dentist will focus on new patients, new patients, new patients, certainly are a huge part of it, but there’s also usually a big pocket of patients that are not active anymore and they’re not coming back in and they’re not spending enough time, or focus on trying to get those patients that potentially already know you, like you and trust you to come back in, and those shouldn’t be the easiest ones to bring back in. That’s why I like to when I approach marketing, I talk about not just new patients, but a holistic approach that’s going to bring patients in from all over the place. I think that’s an awesome point that you made.

Megan Urban (09:21):

Oh, so important. When I talk to dentist and they say, “Well I just have one hygienist. We couldn’t keep another one full.” And I’m like, “Why not? [inaudible 00:09:32]. You’ve been practicing for X number of years and you’ve had X number of new patients per year or per month, whatever, where is everybody?

Chris Pistorius (09:41):

Right. Yeah. You’re totally right.

Chris Pistorius (09:43):

Well let me go to my other scenario here where I’m an existing dentist, and I’ve done it for 20 or 30 years and I don’t want to do it anymore. I’m ready to sell. How long a lead way do you typically get to start thinking about that process and what do you need to have in place? What’s the process with that?

Megan Urban (10:03):

There’s no right answer. I think sometimes dentists are lucky enough to say, hey I have a five-year plan. And that’s where the trusted advisors work together like you and me, the accountant, all that type of stuff to say, how do we make this work in a way that makes sense and we have five years. But if you don’t have five years and you’re ready to sell that still fine too. Either way, we just are going to need to know what your plan is. In fact, I always recommend, it’s not my business and you don’t have to, but I always say, “Yeah, talk to your financial planner. Are you ready? Can you financially retire? And if you can’t maybe you still need to get out because of a health problem or whatever anyway, but what are you going to do with this money in a way that makes sense tax-wise? You still pay your taxes, but what are you going to do with these funds?”

Megan Urban (10:55):

Really the next best thing is just to know, “Hey, I have my CPA that’s going to electronically send you my tax returns, and here’s the reports that we need from your software.” And then we do evaluation, come up with what we think is the reasonable price and then we recruit and find the right fit. Sometimes sellers are lucky enough to have several options and pick the buyer that they think is going to be the best one in their shoes, sometimes they don’t, just depends. And then it’s time to start thinking about a non-compete. Does the seller … Sometimes all of a sudden the day of closing they’re like, “Well, I really think I kind of want to work a couple of days a week.” And it’s like, “Oh my gosh, hold on. That’s not part of the plan.” The new dentist has to eat. The food now is theirs, and they have to pay the bills and pay the bank.

Megan Urban (11:52):

So it’s really good to think ahead. I think for most of them is what am I going to do? Do I want to have in my non-compete that I have the right to help these five friends of mine for one or two weeks at a time to cover vacation? All those details need to be in the contract. So that’s stuff that you need to think about before.

Chris Pistorius (12:12):


Chris Pistorius (12:15):

I get asked this a little bit too in marketing is how do you evaluate a dental practice? Is it how much income? Is it how many patients? Is there a basic scenario or a formula on how to evaluate a dental practice?

Megan Urban (12:32):

Yeah. Yeah, there is. It’s actually a fairly complex evaluation that we go through. There is a certain huge part; that’s the last three years of financials. We do look at adjusted cashflow. When you look at somebody’s tax returns, they may have three kids on payroll for tax and retirement benefits. We take that piece out so that we can see what amount of cash would truly be available to a buyer. We do look at the last three years numbers of how much did you collect and how much did you put in your pocket? That’s a big part of it.

Megan Urban (13:15):

And then we do look at what’s the new patient count? I think every new dentist, that’s a huge question for them. What website do they have? We look at the location. Is it urban or rural? Does it look like 1975 in there? We don’t need it to look like the Taj Mahal, but those things do definitely play a piece in it too. Once we have the financial piece, then we say, “Okay what is this other piece?”

Chris Pistorius (13:51):

Right. Okay.

Chris Pistorius (13:53):

I guess if you own your own building, that’s one thing, but I think most dental practices are in some sort of a lease situation. Does it matter how far along they are in their lease and what those terms look like. I guess my question would be, I’m three years from retirement potentially, should I worry about a longer lease to renew with, or a shorter one? What’s your advice for that?

Megan Urban (14:18):

Yeah. That’s very important. I’m glad you said that. It’s super important. A lot of times I noticed when I talk to dentists that have a lease, they don’t even remember. It’s time to dig that out. Find that lease and see how much longer you have and what the details are. Even if you’ve got 20 years left on your lease or something can this new person take it over? So yeah, lease is super important. And I think you definitely need to know what you have available because the bank isn’t going to give the buyer money if they don’t have that building and that space to practice in.

Chris Pistorius (14:55):

Yeah. Yeah. That totally makes sense.

Chris Pistorius (14:58):

Kind of bringing modern world into this … Does marketing a practice and being able to show that you’ve marketed a practice over the last few years, and you can show physically that new patients come in from your marketing efforts, does that help with the value of a practice?

Megan Urban (15:15):

It does. It definitely does. We have plenty of practices that we work with that don’t have a website, that don’t have business cards, that don’t do advertising, or that still do yellow pages, but the new dentists are a little more savvy to all the ways to market and social media and the SEO and all that. So I think that definitely plays a big part in what a buyer looks at for a practice.

Chris Pistorius (15:43):

Okay. What about employees? You’ve got hygienists, you got front desk staff, you’ve got all kinds of employees. Is there anything that you should do prior to selling to get these folks ready? How does that work?

Megan Urban (15:58):

Not really. Typically, we don’t recommend that your staff or your team has any knowledge of you ready to leave. Now that being said, though, I’ve got multiple dentists that I’ve worked with that say, “But this team has been with me 30 years. They’re my friends. They’re my family. I have to tell them.” “Well that’s up to you. Here’s why we’re concerned. We don’t want them to get panicked and nervous and leave because they are a part of the goodwill too. The patients like the team as well.”

Megan Urban (16:35):

But it’s just human nature to get really freaked out and nervous about this kind of stuff. And so we don’t typically recommend that they talk to them or tell them about it until we have a new buyer and it’s pretty tied up. I guess if you really have somebody awful on your team that you’ve been nursing for a while, maybe it’s time to move on. But otherwise there’s not a lot you can typically do there.

Chris Pistorius (17:01):

Yeah. Yeah.

Chris Pistorius (17:02):

I know this is across the board, but if you brought on a dentist who’s looking to sell right now, how long does that process take on average?

Megan Urban (17:12):

It definitely depends. I guess maybe six months, maybe less. I’ve seen some happen in a month and a half, but I’d say they’re typically usually around six maybe. And that’s allowing for time to find the right buyer and they contact their advisors too, their CPA and their lenders and attorney and get all that straightened out. Again, it goes much quicker if you have dental specific lenders and dental specific attorneys that are involved and know what they’re doing and can wrap it up pretty quickly.

Chris Pistorius (17:49):

Right. Okay. Okay.

Chris Pistorius (17:51):

Now I know OMNI can … Maybe you can talk a little bit about between yourself and your company, who can you service? Where can you help dentists?

Megan Urban (18:01):

Depending on what we’re doing to some degree any state. On our team we have, gosh, I don’t know, probably four dentists that are also brokers. We have a CPA. We have MBAs. We have several of us that have been in the dental industry forever. We’re definitely licensed, especially with our real estate license in I’ll say Oregon, Washington, Alaska, Idaho, Nevada, Arizona, California, Colorado, Ohio. I hope I didn’t miss any there.

Chris Pistorius (18:44):

All over the place.

Chris Pistorius (18:46):

Let’s say somebody is ready to buy their practice or they’re ready to sell their practice. What is typically a first step when they contact somebody like you? What do you do first?

Megan Urban (18:57):

Just ask a lot of questions honestly, to find out what they want to do, what their goal is, if they want to stay on and work some or they don’t. Just in general is we just literally talk about what the process is. “Yeah, here’s how this works. Here’s how we advertise and market your practice. We have hundreds of dentists looking for practice. Well, I do, so as a team, we would have thousands and thousands that I can reach out to. I need to know about your practice and what we’re selling. Who we’re looking for to take over for you.”

Megan Urban (19:37):

That’s really just a simple start. It’s just literally to talk and talk about the practice and what the process is. Yes, we get evaluation and they come and look at your practice and they get lending, and literally just to share that knowledge and guide them.

Chris Pistorius (19:53):

Yeah. Yeah. And in hiring somebody like you with this much experience, over the years I’m sure you’ve got tons of contacts and lending and all other expertise in selling and buying practices, right?

Megan Urban (20:07):

Yep. Yeah. We have all the dental specific attorneys and accountants and lenders that all know how to come together and make it as stress free as possible to the transition.

Chris Pistorius (20:22):

Sure. Yeah. I think that’s the thing. We’ve had experiences here at our agency where practices have grown and they need to expand. It’s a very stressful process a lot of the times. You think about yourself when you buy a home; it’s one of the most stressful times of your life. So I think if you can find the right person to partner with to help you through that process and they know the ins and outs, any less stress that can be involved the better, right?

Megan Urban (20:52):

Yeah. Absolutely. And then that’s what I even find out too is how often they want to communicate with me. Maybe they don’t know yet, but as we go along, they’ll decide. I have some people if I don’t talk to them every day, they wonder what’s going on. But others are like, “I don’t need to know who asked for my information. Just tell me when you have something.” I’m like, “Okay, you got it.”

Chris Pistorius (21:17):

Well Megan, if somebody is watching this and they may be in that process or thought pattern of sell or buy or something in between, what’s the best way to reach out and get a hold of you?

Megan Urban (21:26):

You can call me, email me, whatever you want. Our website is omni-pg, as in It will have my phone number and my email. I’m available. This is what we do.

Chris Pistorius (21:45):

Awesome. I’ll make sure that on the video wherever you’re watching this or listening to this, your details will be attached to that as well. Somebody can easily reach out and get a hold of you if they have questions or just need advice.

Megan Urban (22:00):

Yeah. Sometimes it’s just talking through something. I have all these years of experience and when you’re in your own little office by yourself, maybe you have a couple of golf buddies that are dentists, but you just don’t know. So sometimes talking through a few things.

Chris Pistorius (22:19):

Yeah, for sure.

Chris Pistorius (22:20):

Well Megan, I appreciate you taking the time to be with us today. I know you’re very busy. Maybe we can follow up in a few months and just see how the market is and go from there. Thanks so much for taking the time to be with us today.

Megan Urban (22:34):

Thank you so much.

Chris Pistorius (22:35):

All right. Awesome.

Chris Pistorius (22:37):

Well, thanks everybody for watching. I hope you got a lot out of this. Some great information that Megan just unpacked for us; buying and selling and everything in between, how to get ready for it, how to prepare, what questions sometimes to ask, things like that.

Chris Pistorius (22:53):

Please join us in our next episode and thanks again for joining us today.


What Dental & Orthodontic Practices Need To Know About HIPAA

What Dental & Orthodontic Practices Need To Know About HIPAA

To get in touch with Debi:

Debi Carr
DK Carr & Associates
(844) 352-2771

View Full Transcript

Chris Pistorius (00:04):

Hello everybody. This is Chris Pistorius, the CEO and Founder of KickStart Dental Marketing. Thanks for joining us today. We have the distinguished Debi Carr of DK Carr and Associates with us today. And Debi is a consultant really in technology and security. Debi has over 22 years of private practice management experience, and she’s got over 30 years of experience in technology and security.

Chris Pistorius (00:34):

Now, she helps dentists in obtaining and maintaining a HIPAA HITECH compliance, which I know is top of the page to a lot of you guys out there listening. That includes performing risk analysis and team security training. And a lot of my interview today with Debi will be around that. Debi holds several certifications which is too many for me to list. And we’ll ask her about that in just a minute. But Debi, I want to thank you for being on our show today.

Debi Carr (01:04):

Thank you for having me.

Chris Pistorius (01:06):

Did I mess up the intro at all? Is that just pretty much cover what-

Debi Carr (01:08):


Chris Pistorius (01:10):

Okay, good.

Debi Carr (01:10):

That’s pretty much summed up.

Chris Pistorius (01:12):

Well, that’s good. So, Debi it’s obviously you’ve got tons of experience with this stuff and you’re consulting in an area that I know that a lot of my clients ask about with HIPAA and security and website security, and all kinds of stuff. And why don’t you just tell us a little bit more about how you got started in this business?

Debi Carr (01:33):

Well, I 30 years ago married a wonderful man who was very involved with technology. He would rebuild computers at our home and he also was a computer programmer, and he still is a computer programmer and he doesn’t build computers anymore, but he is a computer programmer for a defense contractor. I went into the dental industry as a practice manager, but we always had our doctor to be state-of-the-art with technology, because I was a techie. So, anything new that came out, I wanted my doctor to have it.

Debi Carr (02:11):

When you have technology, there comes security. And because my husband works for department of defense, I was always having to adhere to that standards. In 2013, I realized that the law had changed. I was consulting, helping dentists go paperless and implement a paperless office, and realized that the law changed in September of 2013, which gave the office of civil rights, more bite in levy penalties and fines against them. And with technology you need security, and the way the law is structured, it can assist dentist and in implementing a security office, a secure office, while meeting compliance.

Chris Pistorius (03:06):

That totally makes sense. And it’s an interesting way to get a start in this crazy HIPPA security world. So that’s very interesting. Why don’t you tell me a little bit more about your business as it exists today and really what you’re specializing in and what really your passion is?

Debi Carr (03:26):

Well, one of the first things that my passion is, is to help dentists to become compliant. And we want them to secure their practice against the data breach. Because if they implement good security protocols, they will be compliant. Compliance doesn’t always bring security, but security will bring compliance.

Debi Carr (03:49):

So, the first thing that we do, is we do a random objective review of their current status, their current situation, we call it a risk analysis. It is the first letter the law mandates. And it’s the first protocol that you should always do in any security management program.

Debi Carr (04:16):

So, we’re going to do a risk analysis and we’re going to see what they have in place, and what they need to have in place. And what we’re looking at is, what is the likelihood of an event happening? What can we do to maybe stop or mitigate that? And most importantly, what is the financial impact that will have on that practice if this risk comes to fruition?

Chris Pistorius (04:42):

I think it’s certainly not over simplifying it, but I think you put it in a way that everybody understands. And I think with anything, I know with marketing on my side of it, it’s the same kind of thing. We put things into kind of an action plan step by step, and that’s how you overcome a lot of stuff that’s going on with the practice. So, I think that’s a great way to put that.

Chris Pistorius (05:05):

Now, obviously you’re not the only consultant that talks about things like this, and there’s several choices that dentists have. And that’s the other problem that I see, is that dentists don’t really know who to trust. Especially with consulting and especially with HIPAA related stuff when it comes to dentistry. There’s a lot of information out there from a lot of different sources, and who knows sometimes if it’s accurate or not.

Chris Pistorius (05:29):

So, what would you say is the biggest difference between you and maybe other consultants, and people that are in this arena, and why should dentists, really trust what you have to say in your authority?

Debi Carr (05:44):

Well, first of all, one of my certifications that I have is a healthcare information security privacy practitioner through (ISC)2. (ISC)2 is the certification organization that is recognized on an international basis for security. So, I am (ISC)2 certified. I’m also HIMSS certified.

Debi Carr (06:12):

The other thing that I think sets me apart is that, because one, I’ve worked in the healthcare industry IN the dental industry for 23 years. I know how practices work. I’ve been in the trenches and I know what it’s like to be in an operatory versus someone just coming in that’s never seen a operatory or understands.

Debi Carr (06:37):

For instance, one of the protocols in security is that, you should go to a screensaver after 90 seconds. I don’t want the dentist going to a screensaver after 90 seconds because he needs to look at that X-ray when he’s doing a surgery. So, because I’ve been there, I know how to overcome and how to do some work around while still securing.

Debi Carr (07:00):

I also have been in technology for 30 years. And so, I understand how technology and how vital and crucial technology is to dental practice, because whether it’s true or it’s not true, but this is how patient perception is. Patients perceive their doctor’s ability based on the technology in their practice.

Debi Carr (07:24):

So, the more technology that they have in the practice, the better reputation they have in the community, but the more they have to secure that technology.

Debi Carr (07:36):

So, there’s three legs to securing a practice. You want to have administrative, you want to have physical, and you also want to have technical. And because of my background, I’m able to look at all three. I work with your existing IT company. I don’t try to replace your IT company. I work with your existing IT company to make sure that they’re providing the service that you think that they’re providing for you, as well as helping you to implement policies and just securing your practice, using administrative, technical, as well as physical guidelines.

Chris Pistorius (08:22):

Yeah. I think that would be a good reason for me to use you for sure. But one thing that stood out from there is that, you make sure that IT companies are doing what they say that they’re doing, right? Or they’re doing what you think they’re doing. And I think that’s really important because the dentists that we work with, they don’t have time to check out and make sure that everybody that they’ve hired and every company that they use are really doing the things that they say. And I think having somebody in place like yourself overseeing some of that, is a very valuable service. So, I think that’s a great approach to it.

Debi Carr (08:57):

And the thing to remember is that ultimately when there’s a data breach, it’s not the IT company that’s held to the highest responsibility, it’s the doctor. It’s the doctor that’s going to be [inaudible 00:09:09] to facing the fines and penalties, not the IT company. Although now there are some fines and penalties that’s going against the business associates, but ultimately it’s still the doctor.

Chris Pistorius (09:22):

Yeah. I mean, it’s the IT company isn’t going to be one shelling out the box. It’s going to be the doc. That’s a very good point. So, just because you’re paying somebody, doesn’t necessarily mean that you’re passing on that liability as well, right?

Debi Carr (09:38):


Chris Pistorius (09:39):

Okay. I think that’s great. Now, talk to me, do you service the entire country or do you just service a specific area, or are you even international?

Debi Carr (09:50):

We try to stay on the Eastern Seaboard. I’ve gone as far West of Texas. But when you specialize in the risk assessments and incident response. Incident response is when you’ve had a data attack or you turn on computers and you’ve got ransomware, or you walk in Monday morning and your computers are gone. Because that involves over 500 patients and any time over 500 patients are involved, you have to A, notify the office of civil rights. Chances are you have to notify your state department of justice, but you also have to notify the local media, and you have to notify your patients. And you have to have an incident response investigation.

Debi Carr (10:44):

So, we’re there to guide you through and help you to know what to do when you have to make that call. But our goal is to make it so that you’re proactive, and that when that happens, you’re ready to handle it. You just go right into what we call a coop mode or a disaster mode. And you’ve got a plan and you’re ready to deal with it. And everybody knows what to do. And they go to step one, step two, to step three.

Chris Pistorius (11:15):

Wow. I think that would be pretty important to have a resource like you, because there is no way that I would know, if I were a dentist I would have no idea where to go to first. And I can promise you that many out there don’t know that they need to do state filings, maybe national filings, contact the patients, and what’s the best way to contact the patients. And I just can’t even imagine how you would navigate through that without somebody like you.

Chris Pistorius (11:44):

Now, one thing you said in there Debi was ransomware, and that’s been on the news lately, right? I mean, that’s where somebody will hack into your computer, lock up the data that you own, encrypt it, and then try to sell you the password to your own data. Is that accurate? And then-

Debi Carr (12:02):

That is very accurate.

Chris Pistorius (12:05):

… to attach on to that, I can see some dentists out there listening to this right now, kind of shaking their heads like, “Yeah, right. That’s really going to happen to a dentist?” So, could you tell us number one, does it happen to dentists and am I accurate with my statement on-

Debi Carr (12:18):

Absolutely. It absolutely happens to dentists because they are a soft target. Because they don’t see security as a priority. Protecting their data. Their data is the most expensive piece of technology or equipment that they have in their practice, but they don’t put the emphasis on it.

Debi Carr (12:43):

And what happens is that they get a ransomware attack, and yes, it is exactly what you described. They’re holding your data ransom. And the FBI tells you not to pay the Bitcoin, because if you do there’s no guarantee that you’re going to receive your data back. These are bad actors that are holding your data. So, they may or may not give you your data back. But because you’re a small office, you are prime target because they are able to get into your network very easily if you’re not protecting and securing it correctly.

Debi Carr (13:23):

So yes, it absolutely is happening to dentists on a daily basis. And a lot of times what I’m seeing is that they will just restore their backup, which is a good thing to do. That’s part of their disaster plan. That’s what they should do. But they still have to do those other parts, and we still have to report it. It is a reportable offense. And you want to be proactive with the office of civil rights versus on the defensive, because you don’t want the FBI and the office of civil rights knocking at your door because they found your data on the dark web.

Chris Pistorius (14:02):

Well, that’s intriguing. And it’s also very scary, but you’re right. I think most, especially the smaller practices out there don’t have tons of security on their network. And it’s a scary thing that, I think potentially, and I hope I’m not overdramatizing things here, but I think that could potentially put a dentist out of business if somebody did this to them. Have you seen that in the past? I mean, is it-

Debi Carr (14:30):

It could be financially devastating. I mean, I’ve seen fines as low as 12,000. I’ve seen fines at 750,000. So, none of us want to pay the government anything. So, to have any penalties or fines coming at us, whether they’re 12,000 or 750,000, that’s a lot. And 750,000 could financially devastate a practice. Not to mention the reputation damage.

Chris Pistorius (15:05):

Yeah. And that’s a biggie with dental practices. I mean, one of the services we offer is online reputation marketing, and we talk to dentists how important their reputation is. And especially as competitive as dentistry is getting now. So that’s a biggie that you want to keep intact.

Debi Carr (15:24):

But imagine if you have to put on your website that you’ve been hacked.

Chris Pistorius (15:27):

Yeah. That wouldn’t help.

Debi Carr (15:29):

On the front page.

Chris Pistorius (15:31):

Yeah. A potential new patient would skip right over your website and go right to the next in line for sure. Debi, how would you describe your ideal client? Who would be your ideal practice that you would work with?

Debi Carr (15:44):

Private practice, usually one to five doctors in the practice. That’s pretty much who we concentrate on. There are a lot of consultants that will deal with the bigger practices, but it’s the singular practices that are the most vulnerable.

Chris Pistorius (16:03):

Okay. What’s the favorite thing about what you do?

Debi Carr (16:10):

Oh, I think the favorite thing is just teaching and training them how important it is to be very vigilant on protecting their data. And just getting through to them that this is something that they have to take on a daily basis take seriously daily.

Chris Pistorius (16:33):

Yep. I think that’s an awesome way to look at it. And there’s no doubt that you’re providing a service that can really help dental practices. Now, one of the services that we provide are website design. And we’ll build a website from scratch, or we’ll take over an existing website and just make it better.

Chris Pistorius (16:52):

And I get lots of questions from practices about HIPAA, all kinds of HIPAA related stuff. But you and I were actually talking about this offline, and I was hoping you could maybe talk to our listeners a little bit. And you were talking about making sure that you have a notice of privacy on the website. Can you just tell our listeners a little bit more about that?

Debi Carr (17:13):

Correct. Yes. Notice of privacy practices is the contract you have with your patients. A notice of privacy practices is required by the law, and it’s how you’re going to handle the data. And when I see a lot of times is that a dentist will download one from somewhere, and they never read it. But that contract has been held up in Supreme Court, inside state as a contract between the doctor and the patient. And that has allowed these patients to sue the doctor.

Debi Carr (17:50):

So, on top of the fines, and on top of the penalties, and on top of the other expenses, now you’ve got a patient suing you because you’ve breached it. The law says that your notice of privacy practice must be conspicuously displayed in your waiting room, and on your website, and must be available to hand out to your patients.

Debi Carr (18:14):

Most dentists are really good at handing it to their patients, but they’re not really good at posting it conspicuously in their waiting room and on their website. And there’s these paid people that work for our government, the office of civil rights has them, the FBI has them, the auditors have them, they troll websites to see if you have that information posted. And if you don’t, that’s a door to allow for a random audit because you’re already in violation.

Chris Pistorius (18:52):

Wow. And there are people paying attention dentists, don’t fool yourselves.

Debi Carr (18:58):


Chris Pistorius (18:59):

There’s all kinds of trolls out there. This is one of them. We have one common in our business, where these people will actually troll dental websites and make sure that the images that they’re using on their website are not copyrighted from somebody else-

Debi Carr (19:12):


Chris Pistorius (19:12):

… and if they find one of those, they send you in the mail is a letter demanding a bill, and sometimes it’s a couple of hundred dollars and I’ve seen them, like you said earlier with the fines, several thousand dollars. So, it’s a lot to think about, but it’s very important to protect yourself.

Chris Pistorius (19:30):

So, that’s great information to have. And we’re out of time today Debi, is there anything else you would like? And actually I think it might be a good idea, could you tell people practices out there. What’s the best way to reach you if they have questions or if they want to potentially hire you, how can they get ahold of you?

Debi Carr (19:50):

They can email me at Debi and that’s D-E-B as in boy, And they can reach me at (844) 352-2771 or DK Carr1.

Chris Pistorius (20:08):

Awesome. Now, will you offer like if somebody called you say off of this program or something, would you be able to talk with them over the phone for a little bit, kind of as a free consult or do you offer anything like that?

Debi Carr (20:20):

Yes. Absolutely.

Chris Pistorius (20:22):

Well, that’s awesome.

Debi Carr (20:23):

My passion is helping them to avoid a data breach and avoid the negative connotations that come with a data breach.

Chris Pistorius (20:33):

Okay. Well, great. And is there anything else you’d like to add Debi before we wrap up?

Debi Carr (20:37):

I think that covers it.

Chris Pistorius (20:42):

Okay. All right. Well, awesome. Well, I really appreciate your time. I know how busy you are. But dentists out, if you are listening and you have more questions about this, Debi’s awesome. She’s part of our network, people that we trust and that we recommend out to our consultants. So, feel free to give her a call if you have questions regarding security, HIPAA, things like that. She’s just an awesome resource to have, and she’s very easy to work with. So, with that being said, thanks again Debi, and thanks for listening dentist.


Successful Strategies For Building A Dental Practice From Scratch

Successful Strategies For Building A Dental Practice From Scratch

To get in touch with Mindy:

Mindy Altomose
Mansfield Orthodontics

View Full Transcript

Chris Pistorius (00:05):

Hey everybody. It’s Chris Pistorius, again, with the Dental and Orthodontic Marketing podcast. I’ve got a special guest for you today. We are with Mindy Altemose. She is the owner of Mansfield Orthodontics, in Mansfield, Massachusetts. Mindy, thanks so much for joining us today.

Mindy Altemose (00:25):

Thanks for having me.

Chris Pistorius (00:26):

Of course. So I’ve told you off air, I want to do more in the orthodontic space in terms of these podcasts. And I was looking, kind of getting ready for this, and I saw that you’re just barely a year into owning your own practice. Is that right?

Mindy Altemose (00:44):

Yes. Yep. We opened just before COVID, so it was just [crosstalk 00:00:49] worst timing really for us.

Chris Pistorius (00:50):

Wow, yeah. I didn’t even think about that aspect of it.

Mindy Altemose (00:53):


Chris Pistorius (00:53):

So maybe you could tell us a little bit about just where was your mindset in college? Did you know, right out of college, you wanted to go start your own practice from scratch, or were you thinking about maybe buying an existing practice? What were you thinking then?

Mindy Altemose (01:08):

Sure, sure. Yeah, yeah. And I mentioned to you, also off air, I didn’t know I wanted to be an orthodontist in college. About halfway through, I was a science major, and I decided to become a dentist by shadowing a bunch of different health professions. And so yeah, I went to dental school. I knew, pretty early on in dental school, I would like to own. I didn’t know how that would look for me, but then luckily, I had more time because I went to residency. And it was actually in residency where I had talked to a faculty member about partnering, and so I had kind of my eyes set on that and for helping to grow his business.

Mindy Altemose (01:42):

And then when it all came to be, it just didn’t work out, and so I was thinking of what way can I go next? And I looked to acquire practices, to be very honest, and there wasn’t anything in the areas I was looking for that I thought would be a good fit for me. And once I’d exhausted all those options, I thought, well, it’s time to do a startup, I guess. And so it wasn’t my first choice to do a startup, but it was what I landed into. And I’m really happy that it worked out this way. I think it was a good fit for me.

Chris Pistorius (02:14):

Awesome. Well, I can tell you, Mindy, that if you started a practice when you started it, going through COVID, I think you can probably just about do anything else in life that you encounter. So that’s an incredible story that just brand new, from scratch, you start this orthodontic practice in one of the worst viruses known to man-

Mindy Altemose (02:37):


Chris Pistorius (02:37):

… right in that era.

Mindy Altemose (02:38):

Sure. It’s-

Chris Pistorius (02:39):

I mean, I’m sure you probably shut down for a month or two completely?

Mindy Altemose (02:43):

Oh gosh. So yeah. So I’m in Massachusetts, so it was almost three months that we were shut down. So we weren’t even open as long as we’ve been shut down. So yeah. And also, I was new to the area. So I had just moved to Massachusetts and opened, so I never practiced here. I was in New York, upstate New York, for awhile. So it was a lot against us to get started, but honestly, I tried to take it, as I could, as a positive. We’re so little and boutique, we could keep it very low amount of numbers in our office, so I used that to help make people feel comfortable about coming to see us. And we try to still keep as least amount of people in the office as possible, so that was helpful.

Chris Pistorius (03:24):

Awesome. Well, that’s an inspiring story. So all of you young orthodontic students, or thinking about being an orthodontist, it can definitely be done, and it can be done even in an environment like we are now with COVID. So that’s an incredible story on its own. So maybe you could tell us a little bit about the practice. What do you really like doing? I know that you offer braces and Invisalign for adults and kids. Where’s your passion? Who do you like to work with the most, I guess, or what do you enjoy the most about being an orthodontist?

Mindy Altemose (03:55):

Oh, it’s the best profession in the world. So I love helping … I have two kinds of ideal clients. One is I love working with kids. So the braces age, traditionally, that kids go through is a very tough time for some kids. 12, 13, isn’t easy for everybody. So I just had an interview today for front desk, and I was talking to her about this. We try to be a positive portion of their day because things are not easy, so I love being part of a very important time in the kid’s life. And we see them often, so that allows us to have a really special relationship with them. So I love working on children, but I also love the busy professionals, as well, and thinking about them in mind and how we can best be as available for them and honor their time.

Mindy Altemose (04:47):

So between both of my ideal customers, it being a family with two and a half kids or whatever they say, and then also the busy professionals, we can always get more money and more things, but we can never get back time. So one of the things that we really try to deconstruct in the orthodontic process, in general, is how do we save patients time? How do we need to be more efficient with their time and value their time more? Because as yourself, a business owner with children, time is precious thing, and so we think about each step of the orthodontic process and how we can give patients back a whole appointment or maybe just 10 minutes or making the process just more streamlined for them. So that way, we are more mindful of what’s most important to them. So those are my two favorite age populations. Yep.

Chris Pistorius (05:39):

Yeah, that’s awesome. So when you start a brand new practice from scratch, and this really goes for dentists or orthodontists or really anybody in business really, but when you start from scratch, and you open the patient book, and it’s absolutely empty, right? What do you think? I mean, how did you market your practice, I guess, from a blank of nothing, to where it is now? What did you do to get that started?

Mindy Altemose (06:04):

Yeah. And so I opened before COVID, so things were different then. And I wish I could do some of the things I was doing then, but basically the biggest thing for me was to be as present in the community as possible. So we went, before we were open, to different health fairs. We went to an agricultural fair. I did a lot of social media stuff because that just isn’t and still isn’t being done in my area, especially for orthodontist. I tried to connect with other local small businesses that I felt might meet my ideal client [inaudible 00:06:39] would benefit from learning about. So I did this Facebook, which I don’t do currently, because I [inaudible 00:06:47] a few people in the office, but a spotlight on small business. So we would bring in family photographers, so you can learn about their business, see them talking to me and interacting.

Mindy Altemose (06:59):

Interior designer, organizers, people that I thought would be helpful for my ideal clients to know about, and also people I want to know about because I am sort of my ideal client because I was new to the area. I have a lot younger kids, but things that I would’ve liked to know about, being new to the area. So I did that. And even though I might’ve only had a couple followers, as they grow, and I grow, we re-share each other’s stuff. So that’s been helpful. And then getting in the community and serving the community was a big thing for me. So I joined a rotary club for my own, something that I wanted to do, but then learning about different drives and campaigns and stuff.

Mindy Altemose (07:41):

That’s one of our four core values is being a community leader, and so helping to support local community events has been huge for us because people love that. And then they’ll be like, “I really love this dog shelter they’re doing, this adoption thing. Can you help promote it?” Or whatever the case may be. And we love to do that kind of stuff. I did a Q&A thing on YouTube or something, and so that was helpful. Any way I could do for free, anything I could do for free, that was the number one thing. There were obviously a lot of paid things I did, as well, but I tried to do as much as I could for free.

Chris Pistorius (08:16):

Yeah. I think that’s a great point. And I think, honestly, it’s something that a lot of professionals miss. I do marketing, and I only work with dentists and orthodontists. And I see this. A lot of people talk to me about, “Oh, we need to do paid ads on Google or Facebook, or we need this awesome website.” And that’s all very much true.

Mindy Altemose (08:37):

Oh, 1000%.

Chris Pistorius (08:37):

But there is something to be said about just being active in your local community and just building relationships that way. That definitely, I think, has to be a core value of any marketing campaign, so much as so, we’ve created a team here that when somebody signs up with us, yeah, we do all the paid stuff and video and a bunch of cool stuff, but we also have this team call in to a local market, and they’ll try to do partnered sponsorships and partnerships with Little League teams or events or just anything to kind of get your name and your brand into that local marketplace.

Chris Pistorius (09:15):

And I think just being able to do that and people seeing your brand, over and over, on the backs of their kids uniforms, whatever it may be, I think that type of grassroot marketing should definitely be a mix. And it sounds like you’re all over that, so that’s awesome.

Mindy Altemose (09:31):

Yeah. I have found that particularly powerful and also because orthodontics is a bit different than dental dentistry, where it relies on referrals from dentists. Or not relies, but we love that partnership. And I wasn’t able to get into a lot of offices, and then COVID happened. And in orthodontics, particularly, it takes two years sometimes to see the work that I do. So of course, it takes time to build that trust, and I totally understand that. So that’s been so key for us because I couldn’t do some of the things I would have liked to done, to go in and do lunch and learns, to help and learn about these dental offices. I’ve had to rely on this grassroots.

Mindy Altemose (10:10):

And other than our location, the majority of our traffic comes from other patients, and some of the things that they have talked about us in, as well as seeing us … I did a gift card giveaway, where I promoted local salon, a local floral shop, and gave away gift cards and things like that. And people learned through us from there, and then they ended up coming in that way too. So any way you can kind of hit people in a different way than usual, where you’re providing value to them, as well, is always a positive thing.

Chris Pistorius (10:48):

Absolutely. That’s awesome. And I started my business the same way. I mean, almost 12 years ago now is when I started, and I didn’t do anything overly fancy. Basically, all I did is I put together a packet of information, and I just started walking into dental practices, saying, “Hey, I’m Chris. Here’s some information. Would love to talk to you more about it.” Got their information and left. And it’s just good to be able to walk in someplace, talk to them, and kind of build that connection straight up. So yeah, I think the grassroots stuff is definitely effective. And hopefully, once we get out of this COVID stuff, it’ll become a little bit easier to do that kind of stuff too. So

Mindy Altemose (11:30):

Yeah, [crosstalk 00:11:30] hope.

Chris Pistorius (11:31):

Yeah. And so we all know that dentistry is competitive. Orthodontic is competitive. There’s a lot of other orthodontists. What would you say is your unique selling proposition? So why should somebody come to your practice versus maybe one of the others? What do you think that is?

Mindy Altemose (11:48):

So yeah, we have a couple things that are important to us. I think how we think about patients is a little bit different than busy orthodontic practices. We have a customized approach to care, and we think about, like I mentioned, each step of the process, to really make it as streamlined, as efficient as possible, to give patients their time back. And we really respect patients’ time, and that’s very evident from the first time that you come in here.

Mindy Altemose (12:19):

Another thing that I’m sure a lot of dentists say, which is true about us too, is we are at the forefront of technology. We use a 3D digital scanner for each new patient, which is wonderful. It helps patients really understand, in a 3D perspective, what is going on with their teeth. We have the most ultra low dose radiation for our pan and ceph. We do a lot of things that are technology forward, which also helps us to save in time and money as well. And I think patients like the ability for us that we do spend a little extra time with them. It’s not a factory or a revolving door. I’ve heard that a couple of times with other patients about other local practices that might have great clinicians, but because we’re so small, still in boutique, and we want to keep that feeling, we are able to provide that additional time, and patients really love that.

Chris Pistorius (13:09):

Yeah, that’s great. And if you keep doing that, you’re going to be even more successful than you already are. So that’s good to hear that we still have some of those doctors out there that really pay attention to patients. And if it means spending a little extra time with them to make them feel better about the process, then it’s definitely worth that extra time.

Mindy Altemose (13:29):


Chris Pistorius (13:31):

So what would you say to somebody that maybe was in your shoes, a year or two ago or three ago maybe, where they’re thinking about opening up a practice, and they’re deciding, all right, should I try to buy something? Should I go on my own? Should I just go be an associate? What tips or advice could you give somebody just starting out?

Mindy Altemose (13:53):

Yeah. So somebody who didn’t know exactly what they like to do, I think getting very clear, first of all, on what your goals are, long-term. You could make a wonderful career, being an associate, and there’s a lot less responsibility on you, on a lot of other things, as far as your time bill and as far as expertise and other things. So that’s the first is being real clear on what it is and why you’re doing it. If it’s just to make money, like I mentioned, you can make great money being an associate and have wonderful vacation and all that kind of stuff. But if you want to build a legacy, for example, or if you want to be able to eventually have a community project that’s really important to you be done, and you use your business to do that. Or you want to change a bit how things are being done, sometimes you can’t do that as associates.

Mindy Altemose (14:41):

So first, figure out what it is you want to do. And as far as owning a startup versus buying, I think it’s all what the opportunity is that presents itself to you. I think that buying is a wonderful way to do it, with a little bit less financial burden and a little bit more security upfront, from a multitude of reasons. But it needs to be a good deal, and it needs to make sense for you and the location that you want to be and all that kind of stuff. And if the startup is what is possible only, then that’s also a good decision. Just know that it is a lot of hard work, similar to acquiring, in a different way. And I would say, as far as tips, there’s a lot of great podcasts out there. I listen to Shared Practices, which is just mostly general dental and dentistry, but I could adapt it to orthodontics.

Mindy Altemose (15:30):

And so I learned a ton from that podcast. And then in my specialty, there’s a bunch of podcasts as well, like OrthoPreneurs and Elevate Orthodontics, which was helpful. And then there’s another really great … I’m sure there’s more now. That was two or three years ago. Oh, and I’m going to forget it now. Mark Costes, he’s a dentist, and he talks about the business side of dentistry. So learning more about that and seeing if that clicks with you, learning what makes sense and what fuels your fire, and then you can kind of go from there. But doing that, and then also visiting a lot of offices. That was huge for me, visiting different offices and what an office could be like because your experience or your handful of people you know, there might be so many other experiences out there that you might want to create. And so getting edified in the podcast world, that was for me. I’m sure there’s other ways. And then just physically being in more offices, maybe not even in your specialty, but just in dentistry, in general, to see what’s out there, and what’s possible.

Chris Pistorius (16:30):

Yeah. Awesome. I want to get your perspective on something. In dental school, do you think they taught you enough about business to make you prepared for starting a practice? Or do you think maybe that could be enhanced a little bit?

Mindy Altemose (16:44):

I was trying to think of something clever on the spot and didn’t come to me. No, there was no training on how to do business. Now, in my residency, I did have a course about it, so I started the wheels to turn. And then some residencies, I know, actually do an MBA, and there’s more than what I got. But no, there was no … Mm-mm (negative). Marie Forleo, she’s a speaker and has a podcast and a book. She has a saying, “Everything is figure out-able.” And I actually bought it, and it’s on my desk over there because I’ve had to learn everything from scratch, from QuickBooks to I never really used social media. I love social media now for my business, but I didn’t use it [crosstalk 00:17:21] myself learning about how it works, to the crazy stuff that you can learn around the office, like sterilization. I didn’t know the ins and outs of that, so I had to learn it. So no, there is no business preparation in school. That was all done through just figuring it out.

Chris Pistorius (17:39):

Wow, that’s crazy. You would think, at some point, they will start to incorporate some of that because there’s more and more people coming out of school that are doing what you did and going right into their own private practice. So there’s this book out there, and I’ve mentioned it before, it’s called E-Myth Revisited.

Mindy Altemose (17:56):


Chris Pistorius (17:56):

Have you seen-

Mindy Altemose (17:57):

I’ve read that.

Chris Pistorius (17:58):

And it talks a lot about how to scale and not just necessarily for in the dental industry, but for anything. And I always recommend to my clients that are struggling on that aspect of it, read that and just try to create this machine that can run without you, right?

Mindy Altemose (18:14):

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Chris Pistorius (18:14):

And obviously, you’re the doctor, and you have to be there, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that you can’t build a practice and have a lot of things not have to be relied upon you, you know what I mean? So-

Mindy Altemose (18:24):

Right. Absolutely.

Chris Pistorius (18:25):

Yeah. Yeah.

Mindy Altemose (18:27):

[crosstalk 00:18:27] and listen.

Chris Pistorius (18:27):

Yeah. Yeah. And so what’s in store for you over the next five years? Do you have some goals in mind, in term of business, and what would those be?

Mindy Altemose (18:37):

Yeah. I think one of them is related to that book, the E-Myth series, is that I would like to … Right now, we don’t have a lot of policies and procedures formally written down. So a big one for me is, from how to answer the phone, to how to walk a patient out, to, of course, all of our clinic procedures, be in a procedural manual. So that way, one, as we scale and grow, it’s more easy. It’s not as much hand-holding necessary, and there’s a lot more we can give to be independent to our potential new hires. So that’s a big one is to continue to grow our procedure manual and make everything automated, so that way, like you mentioned, of course, there are only things that only the doctor can do, but we need to slim that down as we grow.

Mindy Altemose (19:24):

When you’re a startup, I know how to do every single thing in this practice, which is crazy and way too much things for me to be doing all the time. But as we grow, we need to continue to disseminate some of those responsibilities and roles and then write them down formally in a way that [crosstalk 00:19:39] cohesive. So that’s a big one for me. Also growing my team. We’re a team of three right now. We need to continue to grow, in order to help as many people in the area as we can. And so that’s a big one, and then getting all of my ops in. So I have four chairs now, and I have the ability for a couple more. And so I’m continuing to obviously grow patient-wise, that way we can continue to grow and complete my clinic here. So that’d be exciting.

Chris Pistorius (20:07):

Awesome. That’s great. I want to also get your perspective, really quick, on you’re in this a little over a year now. How’s hiring and firing and all and training? I mean, I’ve talked to a lot of people in the industry, and they’re having trouble, right now, hiring people, getting good people. It seems like they’ll hire somebody, and then somebody quits. And it seems like they’re always doing this training thing, and they’re just not getting ahead. I’ve heard the perspective of, “Oh, only hire people at the front desk with experience,” and I’ve heard some people say, “I only hire people without experience.” So what’s your take on this, and being in the business for about a year now, what’s your tips and secrets to that?

Mindy Altemose (20:45):

Oh, so you guys don’t have a magical pool of wonderful employees? Oh-

Chris Pistorius (20:49):


Mindy Altemose (20:50):

… that’s a [crosstalk 00:20:50]. No, so-

Chris Pistorius (20:50):

How do I get that?

Mindy Altemose (20:52):

… It is … No, I’m teasing. I say that, and honestly, I just had hired somebody who I was really excited about, and they just didn’t show up for their first day of work two weeks ago. So I say that in a funny way because it’s been quite a pain point for me. And I am a bit green in this, but something that I look for, that I know a lot of people talk about, is more about personality rather than skills. So I love to train too. Any job I worked at as an associate, I’ve always trained new assistants, and now front desk, here at this job. And so I love to train. I just don’t have all the hours of the day to do so as I’d like to.

Mindy Altemose (21:32):

So I tend to hire people with less experience, and that could be to my detriment. But what I hope to find is somebody who uses that and then grows it further. I like things to be done a certain way. Shocker, type A dentist, right? So of course, just like a startup, there’s nobody with any bad habits, which is wonderful. And so I like when people have some minor experience, a year or two, and then I can provide all the rest of the information. And so there’s no bad habits to break or things that we do kind of work ourselves around.

Chris Pistorius (22:12):

Yeah. In fact, I think it was our last interview we did with somebody, they don’t hire anybody with experience. And the reason for that is that they feel as though the people that do have experience are sometimes just so set in their ways that they’re not coachable, and it’s hard to get them to kind of do things another way. So it’s all about perspective, but I agree. I think if you can find the right personality, that’s probably the thing that you should be looking at first. And then this stuff, I mean, no offense to anybody out there listening, but this stuff isn’t rocket science. It’s teachable, and it’s learnable, and it’s-

Mindy Altemose (22:49):


Chris Pistorius (22:51):

… it’s just something you got to find somebody with a good personality that’s going to take care of your patients and are willing to learn and excel. So I think that’s all valid points. So-

Mindy Altemose (23:02):

Yeah. I think just finding what are your core things that you’re looking for in a person and then reverse engineering the questions to find scenarios where you want to see them have that core value has been helpful for me to see … Something that’s important to us is to be positive always, in all ways. And so I look for negative situations in which you can see how they’ve handled it and carried themselves. And you can only do so much in an interview, but that’s been helpful.

Chris Pistorius (23:29):

Yeah. Do you do any personality tests when you do a hiring?

Mindy Altemose (23:33):

Yeah, we do … Oh, now, it’s going to escape me. Yes. We send it. Yep. And now-

Chris Pistorius (23:38):

Is it the Kolbe?

Mindy Altemose (23:39):

I think … No, it’s not that one. Now, I’m going to-

Chris Pistorius (23:42):

But yeah, there’s a few of them out there. We use the Kolbe.

Mindy Altemose (23:44):

Yes, I’ve heard of that one though.

Chris Pistorius (23:46):

Yeah, yeah. And I got to tell you, I think it’s a good guide, but I’m not completely sold on it. I don’t know that I would ever … Say, okay, I’ll have a really cool, qualified candidate I’m excited about. Oh, the Kolbe’s test isn’t quite right, so we got throw them out. Right?

Mindy Altemose (24:02):


Chris Pistorius (24:03):

I think you got to use it as a guide. I just don’t know that it’s a end all, be all. You know what I mean?

Mindy Altemose (24:07):

Yeah, totally. Yeah. We want to make sure we have similar qualities that we can all work together, but right, it might be slightly off. I think some of them are important, based on where they are in the clinic, and other times it’s not nearly as important.

Chris Pistorius (24:18):

Yeah. For sure. Well, Mindy, I’ve got to thank you so much. I know how busy you are, but just the inspiration that I hear coming from you, of starting a practice during COVID, from scratch, in a new market that you’re not even from, and you’re having this crazy success. And I got to tell you, it’s just expiring for me, and I know it’s going to be very inspiring for a lot of the people that are going to watch or listen to this. So thank you so much for being on the show today.

Mindy Altemose (24:45):

Yeah, absolutely. Not a problem.

Chris Pistorius (24:48):

Awesome. Well, everybody, thanks for watching and be sure to tune in to our next episode, and we’ll talk to you all very soon. Thanks.