[00:00:00] Narrator: Welcome to the Dental Marketing Podcast, a podcast that helps dentists win in the online world of modern day marketing. Each week, we cover the most cutting edge marketing tactics and strategies that are working right now across our client base to drive leads, phone calls, and more new patients for dentists.
[00:00:21] Now here’s your host and founder of Kickstart Dental Marketing, Chris Pistorius.
[00:00:30] Chris Pistorius: Hi everybody. This is Chris Pistorius again with the Dental and Orthodontic Marketing podcast. Thanks for coming back for another episode. We’ve got another great guest for you today. We’ve got Roy Barker, Roy is a consultant, and he’s here to talk about one of the biggest hot issues right now, I think in dentistry anyway, and that’s how to retain employees, right?
[00:00:54] I’ve heard from many of you out there that watch the show or are current clients of us, how we’re having such a hard time getting, finding, keeping employees and you feel like you’re in this churn of, you know, hiring and then training and then hiring and then training and you’re never really getting forward going, getting anywhere forward.
[00:01:13] So Roy, thanks so much for being on the show today.
[00:01:16] Roy Barker: You bet, Chris, thanks a lot for having me. Appreciate it.
[00:01:19] Chris Pistorius: Absolutely. Well first of all, why don’t you just tell us a little bit about what you do, your background, and we’ll go from there.
[00:01:25] Roy Barker: Well, I’ve been consulting for about the last 25 years a lot of strategy, financial, and then, you know, I kind of fell into the retention side that I worked in the senior living industry.
[00:01:39] I actually, I did some graduate studies in that and, you know, I was reading a book and it said that some of these communities can have up to 300% turnover. And I, you know, I actually had to go back and read this again and be like, okay, so you got a hundred people or so and you’re turning the over 300 times every year.
[00:02:00] What is the cost to the organization? Because there’s not only a true physical, you know, money outlay for that, but there’s also humongous risk that we run by, you know, churning that many people through any kind of a business every year. So it just really got me interested in this part of business, and believe me, it reaches out to a lot of industries and hurts a lot of people.
[00:02:23] But it’s the five most dangerous words in businesses that, well, it’s always been this way. But, you know, my message is it really doesn’t always have to be that way. There are things that can be done in order to you know, help reduce that turnover. It’s not gonna be instantaneous.
[00:02:39] You’re not gonna flip a switch. But if you can get yourself in the right mindset and in the process in the right role. I think any business can bring that way down.
[00:02:49] Chris Pistorius: Awesome. Well, that’s you know, you’re definitely hitting a hot topic here and , you know, I know it’s not just in dentistry, but it’s just, you know, it’s what we hear all the time.
[00:02:58] So why don’t you tell everybody a little bit about, you know, what does proper employee retention look like? Is it, going out and buying ping pong tables? Or is it getting a soda machine maybe in there? I mean, how do you do it? What are the tricks here?
[00:03:14] Roy Barker: Yeah. Those are the easy things that everybody wants to focus on, cuz they’re really cool.
[00:03:18] But, you know, my message is, that’s at the bottom. I actually created an employee retention funnel, typically like a sales funnel just starting at the top, how we feed things through and what comes out at the bottom and so, while those are important things to have to retain good employees, the operative word there is good employee.
[00:03:39] We have to make sure that we’re actually hiring people that are compatible with our work situation, good attitudes, and in especially in professional services, people that can handle the customers in a way that doesn’t run your business off, cuz unfortunately, you know, you make some bad hires, they chase off some clients and then you’ve got other problems as well.
[00:04:04] But you know, one of my big messages is I think that we need to think about marketing for talent. Like we think about marketing for clients or prospects is that we can’t be reactive and, you know, recruiting today unfortunately is placing an ad on Indeed or some other service, and that’s not recruiting.
[00:04:27] That’s placing an ad and sending it out, we’ve gotta take the time to recruit and get ahead of this. So, we can be proactive, not reactive. And when somebody leaves, we need to have three or four candidates that we can think, okay, I know, these three people I need to reach out to because I’ve seen their social media and you know what they say, they’re not doing anything outrageous.
[00:04:50] Maybe. And the last year has been difficult because we’ve been under quarantine, so we can’t go out to events. But when you can get to events, you know, collect people’s names, cards, think about that always, who could be, you know, who would fit into my office well? Who would I want the way that we interact at a conference or even at a restaurant, if you get somebody that gives you good service, we could teach them to use the tools the computer put stuff in.
[00:05:17] It’s that attitude and how they handle your customers. Those are the main things. And that they’re compatible with you and your staff, your whole process.
[00:05:25] Chris Pistorius: Yeah, and there is a whole science behind this and sometimes we do this, but have you ever heard of or have any experience or any opinion on using some of the personality tests. Right. I think one’s like a Colby Index where you take them through an exam and it kicks out some numbers. It’s supposed to show their personalities. Have you done that before?
[00:05:47] Roy Barker: Yeah. Actually in the senior living industry, there is a company that focuses on care and caregivers because unfortunately over in that section, you know, they get so far behind in hiring that it’s just more of a catapult, you know, they just bring as many people in.
[00:06:05] And you know, we kind of used to joke that the litmus test for getting hired was first do you have a pulse? And, you know, secondly, do you like the elderly? And everybody’s like, oh yeah, I do. But you know, the reality is taking care of my grandmother for me is a lot different than taking care of yours.
[00:06:23] And so there were, not only skills, but aptitude tests to find, you know, are people tempered with it. A couple other things that they would actually screen for not really hidden but out in the open would be substance abuse and a predisposition to file workers complaints, you know, at first, when I heard that, I actually called the guy that designed it, a psychologist, and called him and said, like, you know, are you sneaking the question in the back door?
[00:06:53] Are you twisting something around? He’s like, nope. He’s like, we come right out and ask, you know, have you ever, would you ever, have you ever considered, because he said, those types of people live in a different world. He’s like, they are very open. They talk to their friends about it. So he is like, the best way is just ask the question, you know, on the drug side it’s you know, could you pass a screen today?
[00:07:15] And if they can or can’t, then, there’s your answer. But it’s also about, getting out there for that recruiting part to like, have people in mind, but then also that assessment, that’s the huge second step before I even wanna see anybody for an interview is we need to have a, you know, industry specific if we can, or position specific assessment to run them through prior to even bringing them in for an interview that’s gonna give you a lot of clues about their aptitude, how they can interact.
[00:07:49] And like I said, it’s not about I know how to run the computer programs at the office. It’s as much, can I learn it? Am I willing to learn it? Those are the types of things that you should be looking for.
[00:08:00] Chris Pistorius: Yeah, that makes sense. And yeah, you know, I don’t think, you know, we use these personality tests more as a guide, you know? It comes back and like, okay, yeah, that kind of aligns, but we’re not gonna eliminate somebody just because their personality test didn’t, you know, cause some people can get squirrely taking tests, right?
[00:08:17] I mean, I just don’t think it can be an end all, be all, you know, when you’re talking about hiring.
[00:08:23] Roy Barker: Right, right. Yeah. And I like those too, because they’re more positional. If you’re applying for a sales role, do you have that sales aptitude versus would you rather be behind a computer?
[00:08:34] You know, just leave me alone. Let me punch in my numbers every day. So a lot can be gained from that. But a couple more things is not only, you know, the other nice thing about the assessment that I was talking about is they would actually generate questions for you to ask in an interview.
[00:08:51] And so we need to really think about, you know, what kind of questions, and not the typical ones that we used to hear about you know, do you want to be a big fish in a little pond or a little fish in a big pond? And, you know, those kind of things because people learn how to talk around those.
[00:09:07] So we need to ask very important thing if it’s a customer facing position, you know, what would you do in this position? Have you ever been in, you know, run through some of these real life challenges. But then, the next thing is the, the onboarding and I always suggest setting up some kind of a mentorship because.
[00:09:28] I mean, Chris, if you just hired me tomorrow, and I mean, I know computers pretty well, but I come to your work and I’m not that proficient with whatever you’ve got going on. Well, I don’t want to come to Chris and say, hey, I’m the guy you just hired yesterday and I don’t really know what to do here.
[00:09:45] If I had a peer, somebody I could say, hey, I’m having a little trouble. They could provide that guidance because I’ll tell you what, a lot of times, the new employee will get frustrated and say, I’m outta here. And then you get the no call, no show, and here you go again, back hiring. So that onboarding process, it’s key.
[00:10:05] And when I say onboarding, it’s not it’s not laying a three ring binder on somebody’s desk and give them a couple hours to read through it and say, you know, we’re done. It needs to be spread out over a period of time, depending upon how heavy it is. But I mean, that could take two to three weeks, not, you know, eight hours a day, but little bits and pieces, get the important stuff out of the way, follow up.
[00:10:28] And then also have follow up guides for, you know, maybe what, these are the tasks that you need to complete every day. This is a task that maybe you need to look at once a week or keep your eye on just a little reminder where they can kind of walk through that.
[00:10:41] Which gets back to the importance of documentation of workflow and documentation of positions because somebody at your company knows what this guy does, not everybody. And so if the right person isn’t there, then it’s like, I don’t even know what this position does. So have everything documented.
[00:11:00] And these are living, breathing documents that change. I mean, just because we outline this position today, when I get in it, we may need to tweak it for what I’m doing. Maybe we’ve added, maybe we’ve subtracted, but it’s gonna change over time. But you need to sit down every six months to a year, really look at all of your positions to make sure that you have them documented what they’re really doing.
[00:11:23] Chris Pistorius: Yeah, I totally agree. And I’m writing down some points as you speak. This is great stuff. But you know, I read a book years ago, and I’ve actually read it a couple of times maybe you have too, it’s called E-Myth Revisited and it talks about, You know, no matter if you’re a dentist, or you’re a McDonald’s, the author uses the example of a McDonald’s in most of the book and how it’s set up, how a franchise is set up, right.
[00:11:49] Where the, basically it franchises the machine, the process and procedures really are the machine. And then you plug people in that have well documented process and procedures to run that machine. And then he says, you can apply. You don’t have to be a franchise to apply that, he talks about how everything that you do in your business should have a manual to it, a process, a procedure.
[00:12:14] So that if somebody got hit by a bus, for instance, right? A new person could almost just walk in and read that and be able to do that jump, and you know, again, that’s not the end all be all. But I think it’s critically important to have that. And I think a dental practice is not immune to that.
[00:12:30] I think that’s something that they could use as well. Would you agree to that?
[00:12:34] Roy Barker: Yeah, certainly it needs to be documented. And nowadays we have access to things like Teams and Zoom, and there’s another tool called Loom, which I love it because it’s a screen capture, and so all these, even if it’s a complex set of going here in a computer system, you can document it and have it there.
[00:12:52] So, maybe you told me about it on Monday when I came in. I’ve forgotten the next week. I can revisit this video to figure that out. So we’ve got so many tools that there’s really no excuse. It’s just taking the time and people think it’s a waste, but it’s not. Because the next part is as we grow, we need to know when we need to trigger that next hire.
[00:13:15] not just because typically what I see is people come in and they’re like, oh my gosh, we needed to hire an extra person a month ago, and now we’re already behind, so we’re scrambling. But you know, that way you can look at your processes, procedures and what’s gonna be the trigger to add that next person.
[00:13:32] So it really helps in growth as well as what’s going on right now.
[00:13:36] Chris Pistorius: Yeah, that’s perfect. And you know, people talk about hiring, and training and it’s kind of laughable type subject, but there’s a pretty big risk I think in doing this too. And I know that from my own business, you know, we have client success managers.
[00:13:52] And they’re really the ones with the day-to-day communication with our clients and they forge relationships and rely on each other. And so that’s a very important hire for us. And we find that if by, you know, whatever reason, we lose one of those client success managers and we bring somebody new in.
[00:14:10] There’s some clients that raised their hands and say, hey, I don’t know about a new person here. You know, I knew Sally, or you know, whoever it was. So I’m thinking, you know, with dentistry, it’s similar that if you do a lot of that churn, do you think that there’s a potential of losing some patience from that type of activity?
[00:14:29] Roy Barker: Definitely not. I mean, from my own experience, whenever, if it’s a company I deal with regularly. If I see that it’s somebody new every time I’m calling or going in, it raises a red flag because I’m like, you know, what is going on? Because it generally, it’s a amplification of other things that are going on in the business.
[00:14:47] It’s not just you know, something that’s siloed over here all by itself, typically. And you know, one thing I was gonna mention is the cost. You know, there’s the risk factor. I mean, nowadays with data and you know, the HIPAA laws and how we gotta protect data, but also, you know, people getting into your bank accounts and doing all this other stuff.
[00:15:07] You know, there’s also that worker’s comp issue, but the true cash cost is depending, but usually between about five to $7,500 to replace a $10 an hour employee. Yeah. And as we climb up.
[00:15:23] Chris Pistorius: There’s not many $10 an hour employees anymore either.
[00:15:26] Roy Barker: Exactly. You know, and there’s been some studies of like your McDonald’s workers that some experts have put that at up to $10,000 to turn them over.
[00:15:36] And so, you know, another message is, let’s take some of that money and invest in our people that we have to help them and make them wanna stay. The reality is too, that people, and there’s, this isn’t my study. There’s a lot of empirical evidence that employees are not gonna walk across the street for another dime or for 25 cents more an hour.
[00:15:56] It just doesn’t happen. Now, on an exit interview, I’m gonna tell you, Chris, I found more money over here because I don’t wanna tell you that I don’t like you or I don’t like your manager or that there’s some turmoil in your business. And you know, there’s just an old saying that people leave managers, they don’t leave companies.
[00:16:14] And so that’s what we have to get to the root of is, what is that management issue? If we have multiple departments, we can look at, you know, when we look at employee turnover numbers, we can see it’s skewed to this one department versus another. Maybe we need to do a little work with that manager over there.
[00:16:31] So, it can be a costly proposition and that’s just on the front end. And like you were saying, the risk on the back end you know, there’s really no dollar limit because they can hurt your business. They can put you out of business.
[00:16:42] Chris Pistorius: That’s right. That’s for sure. Yeah, you know, you mentioned earlier about marketing for talent, and I’ll tell you what’s happening now in the dental industry, as you probably already know, is that, you know, we do marketing for dentists, where our job is supposed to be, you know, bring in new patients, help you keep the ones you have, and then help you bring back in the ones that you’ve already had, right?
[00:17:04] And so what we’re seeing is, you know, is we wanna get the funnel full and get the new patienst, and make sure the back door is locked so that you’re not losing patients essentially, right. So, but what we’re seeing now is that we are now starting to do some of our marketing campaigns on hiring, you know, trying to find people for these dental practices like Facebook ads, for instance, LinkedIn ads.
[00:17:31] We sometimes even manage Indeed for people. Are you seeing more of that happening now and do you have some experience in managing that process or, you know, what do you think of all that?
[00:17:42] Roy Barker: Yeah, that’s pretty forward thinking and it’s a good thing to do that. But the other thing I like to focus on is the practice itself is.
[00:17:51] You know, talk about the why you’re different? What sets you apart than being any other place? You know, like on LinkedIn or Facebook, if you have pictures of, you know, we’ve got modern equipment, it’s a, you know, have pictures of your happy workers that are still working there. You know, those are all the kind of things to make me, when I’m scrolling through, it’ll be like, hey, you know what?
[00:18:11] That looks like a great place to work. Maybe I’ll put in there, or even if I’m a client, you know, we can’t overlook that even some of the clients that come through maybe may make good employees that we just, it’s something that you always have to be looking for. And, you know, one thing I’ve heard a lot.
[00:18:28] Is that you know, people be out at restaurants and they get very good customer service and they just ask the waitress, hey, you know, have you ever thought about being in the dental industry? You know, depending upon the position. But if they’re gonna be a customer facing, if they’ve got a good attitude, you know, those are the things that we always have to be keeping our eye.
[00:18:47] You go to, you know, if you’re at a some kind of a conference event, you know, always be looking around for the intelligent type people that you feel that could work well in your organization. Write it down and say, look, maybe you say, I don’t have a position right now, would you be open to, you know, if something opens up in the next six months, would you be interested in coming, have those conversations.
[00:19:09] You can watch them on Facebook or, you know, social media in general. Because I’ll tell you, I’ve had some people that I thought made great candidates. They said all the right things and then I found some, oh my gosh, moments on Facebook.
[00:19:22] And luckily I checked it before, you know, hiring. But those are things that, if you know this person and you think that they might make a good employee, it’s things that you can always kind of be looking at over time. Not have to make a split second decision. Like, I looked at this one page, this is what it says today.
[00:19:40] Or you know, it gives you time to think about things like that.
[00:19:43] Chris Pistorius: Yeah. Yeah. I agree. And, you know, I’m gonna kind of switch gears a little bit in terms of retention. You don’t necessarily hear about this in dentistry a lot, but what’s your thoughts on maybe including like bonus plans for retention?
[00:19:58] is that something that you think could help? Or is money not the only object here?
[00:20:04] Roy Barker: Typically money is not the object. I think that you want to bonus those. You always wanna bonus those good people that you have and keep them. But I think we kind of get back to what we talked about in the beginning is that, if I’ve got somebody with a sour attitude, I don’t want them staying around for six months.
[00:20:22] Right. So, you know, we want to get that good hire that has the good attitude. But yeah. Bonuses and things like that, you know, and also too, we talk a lot about not necessarily money. Maybe you give them a trip or people like events or like things that they can experience. So if there’s something in your geographical area that would be cool to send somebody for a day.
[00:20:46] It’s well worth it to give them a day off work. Spend a couple hundred dollars to let them go take the, if you close early on a, you know, let’s say a Friday afternoon, send the women if they want to go down and do the manicure, pedicure, you know, pay for that. I’m huge about offsite events. I need to know you outside of work.
[00:21:07] I need to know your family, your kids. I need to know what’s going on in your life so when you come in and have a bad day, we can have a conversation. And I know, you know, maybe if your husband’s going through some illness or something, you know, we can talk about that. But so many times everybody’s, it’s just work.
[00:21:25] But go out and have a meal, cook them lunch, bring in lunch. Do something. But you can’t do that and lock yourself in your office. You have to be a part of the group, the camaraderie, but really get to know the people.
[00:21:38] Chris Pistorius: Yeah. Yeah. That’s great advice.
[00:21:40] Narrator: Are you looking to grow your practice but are a little unclear on what the best way is? Let us help you out. We have over 13 years of experience in helping practices just like yours, increase new patient growth. Just go to KickStartDental.com and sign up for a free strategy session where we will give you some great insights on how to take your practice to the next level.
[00:22:06] Chris Pistorius: You know, I wonder about sometimes you know, when you’re hiring, that’s certainly part of retention.
[00:22:12] You know, there’s kind of a debate going on right now with dentistry and probably other industries of, when you hire somebody for the long haul and you want to, you know, have that retention, should you bring somebody in with a ton of experience or should you bring somebody in with no experience?
[00:22:27] And the reason I say that you kind of tipped on this, is that my thought is with my business is, you know, I can bring somebody in and I can teach them what we do.
[00:22:37] I can teach them marketing and how we do things in the process and procedures, but what I can’t teach sometimes is if I bring somebody in and they just have a bad attitude. They’re not easy to coach. That’s something that I would struggle with in the long term. So the debate is, do you bring somebody in with no experience that maybe you could mold a little bit more or do you take that chance on somebody that’s got a ton of experience?
[00:23:02] What are your thoughts with that?
[00:23:02] Roy Barker: If I have to go with experience over attitude, I will take the attitude because I’m like you, I can train them to do what I need them to do. It may take me a little longer. , but I’ll tell you, a bad attitude is like a virus, and it’ll spread throughout your entire organization.
[00:23:19] Chris Pistorius: And they can hide it. Right? They can hide it during the interview process.
[00:23:22] Roy Barker: Yeah. They’ll come in and smile at you and tell you everything you want to hear and then when they get there, it’s just complain, complain till it sours everybody. And what happens then, unfortunately they end up staying, but your other good people end up leaving cause they’re tired of hearing it.
[00:23:37] So yeah, it can have an adverse effect, but, yeah, and I have a kinda like a Venn diagram almost of it’s like, skill, education and grit. And you know, I think we have to have grit because people aren’t gonna always know every answer. But what I want somebody to do is know when to go find it. I don’t want somebody just to sit there and say, eh, I don’t know.
[00:24:02] I want them say, you know what? Don’t know it, but I can find out for you. That’s the kind of people that we really need to have. And I think that comes from a, you know, kind of a grit factor, is that, It’s, it’s okay to say we don’t know stuff, but we have to follow it up with I will find out and get back to you, whether it’s for the customer or if whether it’s for the professional themself.
[00:24:23] Chris Pistorius: Yeah. Yeah. I think, that’s so critical. It really is. And, you know, I’m gonna, my last big question here is, you know, I come from corporate America, and some of this has kind of been drilled into me, but I’ve always wondered if it is effective. It seems to work for us. But it’s kind of the quarterly review stuff where you sit down kind of one-on-one with somebody and you talk to them about their performance, about where they see themselves and how they want to grow within your company.
[00:24:52]Is that something that’s still effective or are there any new twists to this? Is this something that you would recommend?
[00:24:58] Roy Barker: Yeah, I would recommend sooner rather than later because, you know it’s whatever your start date was, you know, if it’s June 1st, so we’re sitting down in May the next year, and I’m like, you remember back on June the third you did this?
[00:25:12] And you know, the employee’s like, well, gosh, that’s been a whole year now I’m just getting in trouble for, you know, I think we need evaluations. We need to write things down and document it just in case we have to get rid of somebody. We have it, because that’s a bad thing if you don’t do it. It’s really hard to get rid of an undesirable employee, but I think we need to do it in real time.
[00:25:33] It’s just like, you know. Stop by the desk, have these casual conversations about, you know, this is my expectations. Hey, I would like for you to kind of pick up a little bit more on this. But yeah, the more throughout the year we can have them. Because you know, the old days was, it was at once a year.
[00:25:49] Chris Pistorius: Yeah. Annually.
[00:25:51] Roy Barker: Yeah. And it’s kind of lost on everybody because it’s been like, how are you remembering back a year? Have you been taking notes? If you have, then why haven’t we talked, you know, why didn’t you try to correct my behavior back when you thought it was a problem, instead of waiting now giving me a bad review and not giving me a chance, because I don’t think people ever want to come in and do the wrong thing.
[00:26:12] Sometimes they just don’t know. And so, yeah. Again, I can’t stress communication. It’s a open communication that this is, you know, when they start the job, this is what I need you to do. Clear process and procedures that they can refer to. But then having those conversations and you know, quarterly is good, but I mean, even monthly, it doesn’t have to be formal, but it can just be a, hey, here’s some things I want to talk to you about.
[00:26:37] Chris Pistorius: Right. Yeah. That’s awesome. That’s awesome. Roy, I know you’ve been so busy, and we’ve had to reschedule a couple of times for both of our schedules, but I really appreciate you taking the time today. Any leaving words of advice or nuggets of wisdom you can provide the dental industry on retaining their employees?
[00:26:57] Roy Barker: Yeah. Just one more thing. I appreciate you having me. It’s been great being here, but you know what I would challenge everybody to do? It’s to be an employer of choice, not to be an employer of last resort, which is sometimes what we do is we’re the like, I didn’t get that other job I really wanted.
[00:27:14] So you’re hiring, I’ll just take that. So, yeah. You know, really get out there and market and have people that really want to come to work for you, not feel like they don’t have another choice but to work for you.
[00:27:25] Chris Pistorius: Right. And Roy, if somebody wants to reach out that sees this or listens to this and they want some more help from somebody like you, what’s the best way to reach out and contact you?
[00:27:36] Roy Barker: Yeah, just shoot me an email. It’s Roy, R O Y@ ROY Barker, b a r k e r.com. Roy@RoyBarker.com. Yeah, just email me and be glad to chat even if somebody just wants to talk through something you know, I’ll be glad to have a conversation.
[00:27:51] Chris Pistorius: Awesome. Well, thanks again for your time and I wanna thank you everybody at tuned into this episode.
[00:27:56] I know this is gonna be a popular and just because of the importance it has in the dental industry. And please join us next time. We’ve got more great guests coming up in the next four to six episodes and really appreciate everybody taking the time to watch. So Roy and myself, thanks again and we’ll talk to you very soon.
[00:28:13] Thank you.
[00:28:14] Roy Barker: Thanks Chris.
[00:28:15] Narrator: Thanks for joining us this week on the Dental Marketing Podcast. Make sure to visit our website, www.KickStartDental.com/podcast, where you can subscribe to the show in iTunes, Spotify, or via rss so you’ll never miss a show. While you’re at it, if you found value in the show, we’d appreciate a rating on iTunes or if you’d simply tell a friend about the show.
[00:28:38] That would help us out too. If you are ready to grow your practice, then you might want to schedule a free strategy session with us. Just go to KickStartDental.com and click the free strategy session button and give us 15 minutes of your time to change your practice forever. Be sure to tune in next week for our next episode.
[00:28:56] And thanks for listening to The Dental Marketing Podcast by Kickstart Dental Marketing, where dentists go to win online.
